SOLDERING VS. CRIMPING
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I know this will create a certain amount of controversy, so I'm putting it out as "Information Only".
Tear apart your wiring harness on your bike. Yep, the whole harness. Find me ONE factory solder joint. Just One. Hmmmmmm.......I looked. Nope, everything is crimped. Even multiple wire connections are "ground staked" and covered. Any idea why, since soldering is "the best and only way to gaurantee a good connection? No, it's not because machines do it. All auto manufacturers through the years have fought connection problems. Us old guys will remember the main firewall harness connectors that were present on the fifties and sixties manufactured cars. With the advent of fuel injection, computer controlled systems, and low voltage reference values, the connectors have disappeared. But the crimps remain. Techs in the field have been instructed by the factory to make all repairs with crimp joints. Soldering (except in extreme cases) is taboo. It's their belief (and mine) that soldering a connection weakens the integrity of the wire, because it has gotten hotter than intended and has become more brittle. It is more prone to damage by heat and vibration. Those of you who weld.....what happens to the metal around the weld? The weld will last forever, but the malleability and interstitial point defects (big words that roscoepc taught me) have been altered. Here's the strange part. I still solder my joints and larger connections. And I have the special crimpers and access to connectors and plugs to do the job the way the factory intended. Some of us just die hard. JUST INFORMATION! |
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#1
05-26-2010, 07:00 PM,
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Thatâs good information to digest there GL. Thing is I canât solder for crap, not because Iâm new, cause Iâve been connecting wires together for some 30 yrs now and never had a problem. I donât think a bad solder job is any better than a cheap butt connector. Give me a quality connector and my trusty crimp tool and Iâll go against anybodys solder job. As for the mechanics in the field, I would say because solder work is subjective, what to me is a good solder job to you might look like crap (and probably would). Itâs easier to have a standard connector and crimp tool for everybody to use to keep things consistent. But then thatâs just my opinionâ¦â¦ now go ahead and fry me if you like.
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#2
05-26-2010, 07:39 PM,
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Isnt it odd that all circuit boards are soldered.
The only stupid questions are the one's that are not asked.
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#3
05-26-2010, 07:40 PM,
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tricky Wrote:Isnt it odd that all circuit boards are soldered. Ever try to crimp a circuit board? :lol: |
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#4
05-26-2010, 07:54 PM,
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glhonda sez:
Quote:It's their belief (and mine) that soldering a connection weakens the integrity of the wire, because it has gotten hotter than intended and has become more brittle. It is more prone to damage by heat and vibration. Those of you who weld.....what happens to the metal around the weld? The weld will last forever, but the malleability and interstitial point defects (big words that roscoepc taught me) have been altered. I agree with all you said but, there's a big difference between welding 2 pieces of metal together and soldering 2 wires together. Namely the amount of heat required to perform the job... When one is welding, enough heat is applied to actually melt the metal to make the joint connecting the 2 pieces metal you're working on. That changes the temper of the metal around the welded area, making it more brittle and more likely to break. When soldering though the copper in the wires used is not melted together. The solder melts/flows into and around the strands of wire that you've twisted together and bonds them together when the solder cools. Copper's melting point is 1,983 degrees F. The melting point of 60/40 solder is 370 degrees F. Not even close to the wires melting point!! So while the wire's being soldered IS seeing more heat than is usual, it's not seeing enough heat to make the wires brittle enough to matter in the real world.. Oh yeah, I almost forgot: Quote:Techs in the field have been instructed by the factory to make all repairs with crimp joints. Soldering (except in extreme cases) is taboo. In warranty repairs, the factory is footing the bill. As we all know time is money so, which is faster,, Crimping or Soldering? :-
1985 Limited Edition
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#5
05-26-2010, 08:42 PM,
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Heating the metal changes the characteristics of the metal and makes it more brittle, but heating the copper doesn't? Then why is it so stiff an inch or so past the solder joint?
Pick a side of the fence Ros, you can't have it both ways. :YMHUG: |
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#6
05-26-2010, 09:19 PM,
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I purchased an assortment of the Posi-Locs. They work real nice, but the cost is quite high for them.
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#7
05-26-2010, 09:39 PM,
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glhonda Wrote:Heating the metal changes the characteristics of the metal and makes it more brittle, but heating the copper doesn't? Then why is it so stiff an inch or so past the solder joint? Reread my post Mike: Quote:So while the wire's being soldered IS seeing more heat than is usual, it's not seeing enough heat to make the wires brittle enough to matter in the real world.. As far as the wire being stiff an inch or so past where I soldered?? Mine aren't.. If too much heat is applied to the area being soldered, the solder will sometimes "wick" inside stranded wire past where yer applying the heat making it stiff. Don't believe me? Solder 2 wires together, bend them to find where the wire start's being stiff and start cutting the wire and inspect for evidence of solder being present... Let me know what you find.... :YMPEACE:
1985 Limited Edition
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#8
05-26-2010, 09:42 PM,
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I find that even though people are overwhelmed with a proponderance of evidence to the contrary, they will continue to do what they have always done. :YMSIGH:
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#9
05-26-2010, 10:07 PM,
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glhonda Wrote:I find that even though people are overwhelmed with a proponderance of evidence to the contrary, they will continue to do what they have always done. :YMSIGH: I know and that's such a shame... I'm SO glad you and me ain't like that!!! ; :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
1985 Limited Edition
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#10
05-26-2010, 10:19 PM,
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I'm sure I do it all wrong...
My steps.... 1) strip (wire) 2) add heat shrink to wire...at least enough to double (2 pieces) 3) tin 4) crimp 5) solder 6) position and shrink the shrink sometimes I just do 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 Help me if I'm stumbling instead of stepping. |
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#11
05-27-2010, 11:19 AM,
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I would like to add something to this discussion as a product designer and former production engineer.
Heating copper makes it more malleable as state above, not stiffer. The solder however does make the wire near the solder point more rigid because the solder flows back up the wire by capillary action and effectively makes the flexible stranded wire into a solid wire. Also, if flux is not cleaned properly after soldering, it can have an erosive effect on the wires later. There are good crimps and there are bad crimps. Production people constantly deal with this problem in harnesses and connectors. But crimping is by far the easiest and cheapest way to terminate a wire connection in production and the easiest to train for on production crimping machines. The main reason that Honda want's crimps rather than solders in the field is that they don't want employees handling lead and flux and cleaners. They also have problems with insulating the connection after the soldering would be completed. In most commercial environments, employees have to be trained to solder and become certified for that task. A wire terminal for a connector is a crimped connection. It will oxidize at the crimp point more than a a properly soldered connection but it will remain functional long term, and can be repaired the same way later if needed, without the rigidity that soldering brings. Having said all that, if you have a wire that you know will not be bending (like at a connector) and you know how to properly solder, clean and heat shrink a connection, wire to wire, that will be your most reliable long term connection. More so than any crimp. But if you get 20 years out of a crimped pin connection, that is considered a good and practical life cycle for the connection. Plus Billy Bob can do it in his sleep most times. |
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#12
05-27-2010, 11:26 AM,
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In the Military Specification world (Mil-Spec) ,crimping is the last word.There are tools and dies that are specified by US Navy Bureau of Ships as well as a number of engineering references and standards. Crimping, when done properly by a trained person will, in the application ,hold up just as well as soldered. especially in a shipboard environment. The only soldering we ever did was on large size power connections, and even those were crimped first. So, when I did my yellow wires, that's what I did, crimped ,then soldered.
Patrick |
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#13
05-27-2010, 09:09 PM,
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Hear hear!
Patrick |
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#14
05-28-2010, 06:37 AM,
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If there is any chance that the connection will flex, crimp it. Marine technicians are instructed that soldered connections can't handle flexing at all.
Previous Bike, '86 Aspencade
Current Bike, '87 Interstate |
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#15
04-06-2011, 07:41 AM,
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